tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3764159777348916628.post403110507792045434..comments2024-02-18T00:11:11.490-08:00Comments on Heroines of Fantasy: The Tavern: Just a trope or something more?Heroines of Fantasyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07169664399606524540noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3764159777348916628.post-85936200935284587442012-09-13T13:17:46.572-07:002012-09-13T13:17:46.572-07:00(Mark is still having issues getting our little ho...(Mark is still having issues getting our little house here on Blogger to let him in. He asked me to post this.)<br />Pongo:<br />Thanks for proving my point. Tolkien's use of the tavern created a groundswell of imitation in the years since. The over-use, and ill-use since created the trope claim that plagues the genre in critical arene.<br /><br />Minas Tirith was a shell of its former self, had been on a war footing for a generation, and at the time of the story the need for inns as over. One could argue the guest house where Bergil and Pippin met served a similar purpose. Tying the tavern notion to the Numenorean culture doesn't wash to me.<br /><br />No matter the source, in the end, the tavern in JRRT's material serves an essential purpose that connects history, culture and plot <br />harmoniously. When those variables aren't well articulated, we get the trope claim and rightly so.<br />Terri-Lynnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11468004163467894720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3764159777348916628.post-19972664936516799852012-09-13T11:08:56.573-07:002012-09-13T11:08:56.573-07:00Mark said:
In fact, Tolkien probably did more to...Mark said:<br /><br /> In fact, Tolkien probably did more to cement the idea of the tavern/inn as a staple of fantasy than anyone else<br /><br /><br /> And I'm not so sure.<br /><br /> Tolkien didn't introduce the tavern or inn to fantasy. i'm not sure who did but it was likely Rober E Howard. While Tolkien mentions 3 taverns (the Green Dragon, The Prancing Pony, The Ivy Bush) - all in one relatively small geographic area: The Shire/Bree, Howard mentions (unnamed) drinking houses in many stories - The Tower of the Elephant, Black Colossus (Conan has come from 'the last wine-shop open'), The Queen of the Black Coast, Shadows in Zamboula, The Hour of the Dragon and Wolves Beyond the Border). That's a quarter of his published stories and most of the others are set in remote areas beyond civilisation or in lands that were not based on western culture. <br /><br /> While in Tolkien we can merely assume taverns were Numenorean in origin and preserved in the prosperous rural locals of the Shire and Bree, in Howard they are widespread in the civilised west.<br /><br /> I'm of the mind that Tolkien may have included inns because hobbits were based on his slightly idealised view of the English rural working and middle classes whereas Howard, writing in Prohibition-gripped America, included them because tawdry drinking dens were a staple of cities in his civilisation . . .<br /><br /> But while I do think the tavern is more prevelant in Howard than Tolkien and so he probably set the trend earlier (though I doubt Tolkien had him in mind at all), I suspect the vast raft of Tolkien imitators, especially those who initiated fantasy role-playing games, Messrs Arneson and Gygax, played a yet greater part in turning drinking-houses from background detail to trope.Pongo Pygmaueshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01364859669363113718noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3764159777348916628.post-78522689614050965632012-09-12T13:18:46.681-07:002012-09-12T13:18:46.681-07:00Pongo--I was hoping you'd chime in. You are al...Pongo--I was hoping you'd chime in. You are always our Tolkien scholar in residence.<br /><br />Mark's having some issues with posting comments. I'm going to ping him now and escort him in. :)Terri-Lynnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11468004163467894720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3764159777348916628.post-35404711235269090112012-09-12T12:43:47.800-07:002012-09-12T12:43:47.800-07:00Does Tolkien actually mentuion any taverns in Mina...Does Tolkien actually mentuion any taverns in Minas Tirith? I can't recall such. Pippin eats in what is essentially a military mess and there is an old guest hall mentioned, but that doesn't seem to be a tavern.<br /><br />I agree that implicitly one might assume that the inns that are mentioned (in the Shire and Bree) are holdovers of Numenorean power and so it's liukely there would be such in Gondor. But actually I think it's more to do with the Shire and Bree being based heavily upon early c.20 rural England and so the pub being a staple of village life. In that sense I think they are somewhat anachronistic (there's little evidence that, for instance, way-stations on the Royal Road of the Persian Empire were devoted to drink) but in fairness both the SHire and (to a lesser extent) Bree have clearly been preserved (by the activity of the Rangers) as isolated beacons of prosperity in the north.<br /><br /> Pipe-smoking is equally a Shire trait (that was picked up by dwarves and rangers both) and, like drinking, was a staple of early c.20 recreation in rural England.<br /><br /> All that aside, a tavern depends on prosperity. Most rural cultures are not prosperous. Those that are can feature taverns (though drinking and the provision of accomodation could as well happen in a lord's hall -- like in The Children of Hurin when Turin returns home to find the Easterlings in residence, or, we may fairly presume, as would have been commonplace amongst the Rohirrim) if it fits with the culture. But the inclusion of commercial drinking-houses will imply a lot about the surrounding culture in economic terms (there must be considerable folk with surplus income living nearby or regularly passing through). Pongo Pygmaueshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01364859669363113718noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3764159777348916628.post-16551880107054270162012-09-10T08:26:03.530-07:002012-09-10T08:26:03.530-07:00amuletts--very true!
You know what I found discon...amuletts--very true!<br /><br />You know what I found disconcerting? When visiting Colonial Williamsburg, during a tour of the local inn, we were told that there were not ROOMS to be had in such common places, but bedspace. There would be several beds set up all over an open room, in any nook or cranny available. Very often, that bed would fit two, three, even four patrons. A traveler often ended up sleeping with several strangers.<br /><br />Of course, if you had more money, you could afford to stay in a place with individual rooms, but in FACT, someone with that much money would have to be pretty desperate to do so. Typically, the local "nobility" would put you up.Terri-Lynnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11468004163467894720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3764159777348916628.post-60161552001540584212012-09-10T08:21:45.105-07:002012-09-10T08:21:45.105-07:00I honestly don't know if the importance of the...I honestly don't know if the importance of the tavern in fantasy mimicks the time-period equivalent in actual history, but it seems to me that such gathering places are vital. They're a place to get information. Where else would you get it? It's not so long ago that the town crier was the masses' best and sometimes only source of news. Revolutions were planned in taverns, if American and French history are to be believed. I don't see taverns as being a trope; I see them as being essential.<br /><br />That being said, the form a gathering place is going to take will vary by culture. When it came time to put such a place in Finder, I couldn't give it the look and feel of a European style tavern/pub. Instead, I called it a doovah (riffing off an old Arabic word loosely connected to the concept) and styled it more after what one would find in a desert settlement. But there is always one thing in common--alcohol! And beer is one of the oldest there is.Terri-Lynnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11468004163467894720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3764159777348916628.post-38286257226190189492012-09-10T08:16:51.924-07:002012-09-10T08:16:51.924-07:00I think it's difficult NOT to have taverns in ...I think it's difficult NOT to have taverns in a fantasy story that uses the travelling Adventurer. I've been on the road myself and, sure, you can sleep outside but if you have enough money a nice bed is much more comfortable, not to mention a full meal. So if your Adventurers are travelling it would be a bit strange for them to turn up their noses to a nice, comfortable Tavern, wouldn't it?amulettshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08518698665243308354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3764159777348916628.post-85269308171045508792012-09-10T06:24:09.870-07:002012-09-10T06:24:09.870-07:00Great post, Mark! So good to have you on board.
...Great post, Mark! So good to have you on board.<br /><br />I love taverns in stories, though interestingly enough I don't think I have any taverns in my own. But I think taverns evoke a sense of community -- in addition to everything else you've already said -- so if you don't have taverns you have to find another way to establish what taverns bring to the story. <br /><br />Since my college days I've held to the belief that all the truly great ideas in human history were conceived of in taverns.<br /><br />Bavaria has a patron saint, Aloysius, who left heaven so he could spend eternity in a tavern. He's my patron saint, too. ;) <br />Karin Rita Gastreichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13788750258292938903noreply@blogger.com