tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3764159777348916628.post1927163283680317096..comments2024-02-18T00:11:11.490-08:00Comments on Heroines of Fantasy: The Non-Kick-Ass HeroineHeroines of Fantasyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07169664399606524540noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3764159777348916628.post-72576420300032192982013-12-04T12:45:23.659-08:002013-12-04T12:45:23.659-08:00Mark--I too believe there is plenty of room for th...Mark--I too believe there is plenty of room for those good ass-kicking heroines. I love them--if done well. You know how it goes--there is nothing NEW, there's doing it well, giving it a twist, or simply, making it believable.Terri-Lynnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11468004163467894720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3764159777348916628.post-61010314096662340842013-12-04T12:44:19.184-08:002013-12-04T12:44:19.184-08:00(Posting for Mark, because he can't do this fr...(Posting for Mark, because he can't do this from where he is.)<br /><br />Awesome comments, folks. Here are a few of my salient thoughts. I <br />apologize if they sound a bit off topic. I've been mulling responses...<br /><br />Even though Cherryh's Morgaine is a sword wielding conflicted bad-ass, I've never thought of her as cliché in anyway. To me, she stays true to her tragic nature. In her relationship with Vanye, she transcends the constraints of her task.<br /><br />In my own writing, I would like to think that Eleni manages to move <br />along a growth line within the limits of her society. She finds her voice, as it were, despite not engaging directly in any of the mayhem that transpires--especially in King's Gambit. And yet, spoiler alert, when she comes to a point in Path of the Poet King where she's had enough, she adopts a pretty bad-ass attitude.<br /><br />Originally, Lyvia was a bow and arrow using badass during the fight for the wharves in Desopolis, but I much prefer what she morphed into with the final version of the tale.<br /><br />MarkTerri-Lynnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11468004163467894720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3764159777348916628.post-1597543857060056672013-12-04T08:37:11.062-08:002013-12-04T08:37:11.062-08:00@Jenny, Yes, and I suspect that's why I don...@Jenny, Yes, and I suspect that's why I don't read a lot of fiction that has those characters. When you can check off the cliché items as you go along...<br /><br />@AT<br />Yep, the talent has to come from somewhere, but you don't have to -show- it all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3764159777348916628.post-90527460152470542742013-12-04T08:02:41.698-08:002013-12-04T08:02:41.698-08:00AT "Kickass is ok, as long as your kick-asser...AT "Kickass is ok, as long as your kick-asser is human."<br /><br />Very, very true.Terri-Lynnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11468004163467894720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3764159777348916628.post-24882736431402028042013-12-04T08:02:00.546-08:002013-12-04T08:02:00.546-08:00Jenny--The mainstream is slow to let go of a trend...Jenny--The mainstream is slow to let go of a trend that was once NEW AND EXCITING. It's not anymore. Now it's as cliche as the damsel in distress.<br /><br />Seriously--at this point, I'd love a little DiD. Oh! You know who did that really well--and I can't beleive I'm about to say this--Dinsey, with Tangled.<br /><br />Rapunzel was a bit of a DiD, a bit of a ditz. She grew, not into a kickass heroine, but into the sort of strong that was right for HER character. She remained a bit ditzy, a bit of a dreamer, a bit clumsy--but she got the job done. I loved her immensely.<br /><br />And that's another thing I hate--the notion that a character must lose the essence of who she is to evolve into kick-assedness. I love to see heroines like Rapunzel, like Eolyn, like--gasp--Elle from Legally Blonde. They maintain who they are while evolving, while becoming the women they were born to be.Terri-Lynnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11468004163467894720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3764159777348916628.post-89834797574180523092013-12-04T04:52:13.419-08:002013-12-04T04:52:13.419-08:00Writers are lazy, but there's a good reason. ...Writers are lazy, but there's a good reason. <br /><br />Readers are impatient. Instant gratification is not fast enough, so load that 'Kung Fu' program. What kind of story dedicates 20 chapters to pulling a bow before she can put an arrow between a orc's eyebrows? <br /><br />So, it becomes what it becomes; we get shake-n-bake heroines, and we lose all sense of wonder at what they do. <br /><br />I side-step this issue by writing about a heroine--Shadyia--with the ability to instantly learn what she observes:<br /><br /><b>Deresi stopped in front of Shadyia and locked fingers with her Sister. “You amaze me,” the red-headed girl said.<br /> “What have I done recently?”<br /> “What have you—” Deresi mumbled. “You fight like a Sada Blademaster, you speak Old Ahemian like one born there, you talk a merchant into making you a dress that noble ladies would sell their soul to own—and make it for one hundred silver, no less. You amaze me!”<br /> “I learned sword play—”<br /> “—from a Captain of the Redguard who dressed you in armor three times a week for a year. I did not believe it this morning and I do not believe it now.”<br /> “I didn’t lie—”<br /> “I never said you did,” Deresi said without anger. “But I am no fool. One does not learn to master a blade by pretending to bang swords with a Coin for a year. Did he also speak to you in Old Ahemian?”<br /> Shadyia reacted as if struck and shook her head.<br /> Deresi arched her eyebrows, waiting for an explanation.<br /> “It’s nothing special,” Shadyia said. “I can imitate what I see and hear. I have been listening to Ahmen merchants since I was a child. And I have watched men duel many times. I see where to strike and how to stand. As for the dress, the ranu lowered his price when I promised to tell him of Leon Martel.”<br /> Deresi whistled. “If Makayla finds out, she will hang you by your heels for a week.”<br /> Shadyia glanced around to see if anyone was close enough to eavesdrop. “Well, she will not find out, will she?”<br /> “She may, when a gown fit for Queen Mienhard arrives in thirty days,” Deresi said and kissed her cheek. “Just come up with better lies. That is one thing you can learn from me.”</b><br /><br />One way I avoid the instant gratification pit to add a human element to my character's abilities. Shadyia plays a piano of sorts after watching it played only once. When questioned about it...<br /><br /><b>“Your grandmother was far more than that,” Aaron said. “She was Vaskar. You know her as…as Luun.”<br />Shadyia’s knees weakened. “My grandmother was a goddess?”<br />Aaron looked for a moment like he might take exception to her words, but then his expression yielded. “Yes, essentially, I guess you can say that. It’s one of the reasons you can do such amazing things, like playing my gruziencord.”<br />“No, that’s nothing,” she said, waving away his words. “Anyone can do that.” <br />“Shadyia, it took me decades to learn how to play a gruziencord as well as I do,” he said. “Be assured, just anyone cannot do what you did.”<br />Shadyia shook her head. “It’s like learning to swim,” she said. “Some people think they cannot do it, until they are taught.”<br />“I see,” Aaron said. “And could a bird learn to swim as well as a fish? Or could a fish fly like a bird?”<br />“Of course not,” Shadyia said. “Fish don’t have wings.”<br />“Luun gave you wings,” Aaron said. “I’m sure it feels quite natural to you, as flying does to a bird. But to the rest of us fish, it’s amazing.” </b><br /><br />She's not even aware that what she does is special. <br /><br />Once, I played chess with a man who never once looked at the chess board (I moved his pieces and called mine out like 'pawn to queen 4"). When I asked him about this, he said that he 'saw' the board as clearly as if he were looking at it and wondered why others couldn't do the same.<br /><br />That human element is essential. <br /><br /><b>TL;DR Kickass is ok, as long as your kick-asser is human. </b>Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15244653473304470304noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3764159777348916628.post-71355064351788610192013-12-04T03:37:38.737-08:002013-12-04T03:37:38.737-08:00The whole 'kickass heroine' thing has beco...The whole 'kickass heroine' thing has become such a cliche, and I am infamously cliche-adverse!<br /><br />It goes without saying that I love a strong heroine, but 'strong' seems to have become intrinsically-linked with 'kickass' in some circles, despite that fact that strength comes in many different shades.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3764159777348916628.post-20710087701250188292013-12-03T12:39:47.323-08:002013-12-03T12:39:47.323-08:00@Karin,
Yes, that's very important. The posi...@Karin, <br />Yes, that's very important. The position of weakness leaves us nowhere to go but up ;o)<br /><br />And thanks!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3764159777348916628.post-62237676545802114632013-12-03T08:35:38.419-08:002013-12-03T08:35:38.419-08:00Karin--I actually thought about Linhare (Beyond th...Karin--I actually thought about Linhare (Beyond the Gate,) and Zihariel and Augnesse (Finder) and Eolyn (Eolyn/High Maga), and Ki'Leah (Song and the Sorceress/ Northern Queen,) and Eleni (Poets of Pevana/King's Gambit) and...and...and so many of the characters who populate Hadley Rille Books' books! (How's that for a plug, eh?)<br />But heroines like Oriana and all of those above are rising like the true heroines they are. It overwhelms me with joy and pride. It really does.Terri-Lynnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11468004163467894720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3764159777348916628.post-53852531105762665282013-12-03T06:17:38.422-08:002013-12-03T06:17:38.422-08:00Thanks for this wonderful post, Kathleen! The Gold...Thanks for this wonderful post, Kathleen! The Golden City sounds like a great novel with an intriguing heroine; I am really looking forward to reading it. <br /><br />I know Terri's not going to push her own work here, so I'll do it for her; but I couldn't help but think of Linhare from 'Beyond the Gate' while reading this post. She's another good example of a heroine who doesn't have to kick ass in order to...well, kick ass. ;) <br /><br />There are readers out there who like their heroines to have it all figured out from the get go, but I'm not won of them. I tend to favor any character, male or female, who comes from a position of relative weakness and grows/changes as the story develops.<br /><br />We really appreciate you coming to the blog this week. Good luck with the new release! Karin Rita Gastreichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13788750258292938903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3764159777348916628.post-58362380421581350122013-12-02T16:06:07.616-08:002013-12-02T16:06:07.616-08:00Thanks, Diana and Kim!
Thanks, Diana and Kim!<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3764159777348916628.post-14939998302720498432013-12-02T13:31:42.984-08:002013-12-02T13:31:42.984-08:00Great post! I totally agree that these skills have...Great post! I totally agree that these skills have to come from somewhere, and for fantasy heroines without easy access to barbells or years of training, they probably need to sharpen up some other, more important ways to succeed.<br /><br />I'm SO looking forward to this book, by the way! Can't wait to read it over my break! :)<br /><br />Kimwriterknvhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13606954840446684938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3764159777348916628.post-72182562987281226882013-12-02T12:34:15.991-08:002013-12-02T12:34:15.991-08:00I think intelligence and persistence do make a cha...I think intelligence and persistence do make a character kickass. This sounds like a great read! Diana Munoz Stewarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02217584389824063679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3764159777348916628.post-23045878040215222642013-12-02T09:55:05.210-08:002013-12-02T09:55:05.210-08:00Oh yes...she absolutely would!Oh yes...she absolutely would!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3764159777348916628.post-61649181458914301922013-12-02T07:50:53.772-08:002013-12-02T07:50:53.772-08:00Thanks for this great post, JK!The ultimate in kic...Thanks for this great post, JK!The ultimate in kickass heroine that kicks ass both softly and with physical power is Yeoh Chu-Kheng (Michelle Yeoh) in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. She, IMO, surpasses Sarah and Ripley, and even Zoe--who I love!--in that she comes at her power in two ways. She is a woman who uses her power in the cultural ways a woman can do so in her world, and she also wields power in that physical way of Sarah and Ripley and Zoe do. Personally, I think she'd kick all their asses. :) Terri-Lynnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11468004163467894720noreply@blogger.com